Manners
Posted by Mad Rocket Scientist | Filed under Buttinskis, Guest Authors, Liberating Liberty, Nanny Business
In going through my Blog reader, I’ve noticed another round of Open Carry discussion going around. For those not in the know, most states legally allow a person who is not prohibited from owning a firearm to openly carry that firearm in a holster on their hip, out in the open, just like a uniformed police officer or security guard. The discussion hinges around the wisdom of Open Carry in today’s society.
As far as Open Carry goes, I have no problem with it personally, although except for when I am in the wilderness, I don’t do it. I carry concealed when I carry in areas where the population density goes over 20 people per square mile. However, I know of and read about people who Open Carry quite regularly, either because they are too young to get a CCW permit, or because open carry is more comfortable (it is). Some also do it as a way to try and educate the public regarding the legality of open carry and to paint a law-abiding face on the image of normal gun owner/carrier.
Now I know the great majority of persons who open carry are probably not the “in your face” kind of open carry advocates, but I know some of them are, the kind who have to declare the fact that they are armed by announcing it in public. And they argue that people who are freaked out by guns, and who feel scared or intimidated by a person openly carrying, should just put up and shut up because their feelings don’t trump others rights.
And as a matter of constitutional law, they are right, feelings don’t trump rights.
As a matter of our current “polite” society, they walk a dangerous edge. See, people don’t like feeling intimidated and threatened, and no matter how comfortable you are with something, telling someone else to “get over it” is a great way for them to get over it by pushing for a ban.
Don’t believe me, think I’m blowing smoke up your posterior orifice? Well, look into that smoke, and recall the bright heyday when you could smoke darn near EVERYWHERE!
Remember those days? Remember the days of planes, trains, and buses with a haze of Marlboro, bars and restaurants with a tinge of Camel, clubs with the minty aroma of Newports? I do, been a while though. How many of you think smoking bans are stupid? How many of you, even those who don’t smoke and don’t like it, would never deny a person their legal right to a Nic Fit?
Probably most of my readers would put up, but for those who don’t smoke, or have since quit, how many of you secretly enjoy not having to breathe smoke?
So how did smoking bans come about? Well, to put it simply, smokers were rude about it and had no consideration of the fact that smoking had an area effect. People got tired of smoky restaurants, and workplaces, and mass transit. They got tired of butts scattered about the ground next to the ashtray and along the highway. They got tired of all of it. No one cared that smoking was a legal activity, what they cared about was that smokers had to be all in your face about it, and when you asked a person to stop smoking, they threw a fit, or did something rude, like exhale in your face. In my youth, when I ran a hotel front desk, I can not tell you how many times I had people throw a temper tantrum in my lobby over the fact that we had no smoking rooms left and we would not allow them to smoke in a non-smoking room. Grown adults literally calling me names and stomping around or loudly bitching, and this was hardly a rare event, it happened multiple times, every time we had a busy run.
Of course, people tolerated all of this, right up until data started to appear regarding second hand smoke, and then suddenly they had a lever, something they could base a ban upon, because even the most libertarian could not defend a habit that while harmful to the user, might also harm a passerby. Even though the research into second hand smoke was still very preliminary, and years worth of work had to be done yet, the movement was on and smoking bans started to appear all over. My state of Washington is a No Smoking State.
I don’t want something like this to happen to open carry. I worry that a handful of overly public OC advocates will give ammunition to some overly loud Gun Control Advocates, and a precious right will be in danger just as we started to get it back. I don’t know the answer to the problem, but it is something that needs to be discussed, and as gun owners, it is imperative that while we may not agree with persons who freak out over a holstered gun, we are obligated to try and understand them, or we will never find the right combination of public display and education to make them comfortable with the idea of OC, or any other conservative idea that has value.
That all being said, I left a comment over at the Minstrels about an image he had up:
…Actually, given how much people are just fine seeing a cop or security guard with a badge and a gun, but lose it when J.Q. Public walks around with a holster on his hip, maybe issuing badges to people who want to carry open or concealed would stop some PSH.
Maybe that is what we need?
Help Support Simon-Jester.org!
June 23rd, 2008
Odd thing is that here in the Gunshine state, we have to hide our shameful weaponry.
I’m of the mind that open carry only has one major disadvantage – you loose the choice of bringing your weapon into play. I don’t buy into the sooper-stealth-mall-ninja “Surprise as the holy grail of tactics” crap. Having to get my clothing out of the way isn’t exactly subtle.
The advantages are there, though. OWB holsters are a bajillion times more comfortable, and it shouldn’t be a crime for people to know you have a firearm, which it is here in Florida. A stiff breeze or a creeping shirt and I’m now possibly a felon.
We need to introduce open carry a heck of a lot more, but not in large groups of boisterous idiots. Unfortunately, even as ingrained into the American psyche as guns are, the anti-gunners have made the handgun almost something to be ashamed of. I’m for open carry for just that reason.
Unfortunately, every group seems to be defined by its loudest idiots.
June 23rd, 2008
Most states do have open carry — but (correct me if I’m wrong), I believe that a lot of states also grant home rule to municipalities who then quickly enact ordinances against carrying in city limits. Illinois is an example of this, IIRC.
Arizona is a classic exception in that I (again, I could be wrong) believe that open carry is a protected right in the state and local towns and cities can’t override it. I lived in Tucson for several years and, not having a CCW, I would occasionally carry if walking about the neighborhood at night. Not in your face at all — made me feel *EXTREMELY* self-conscious. Not many citizens in Tucson did practice open carry, but now and then I’d been in McDonald’s or Autozone, etc. and see a customer with a (no kidding) six gun on their hip. While I was “aware” of the weapon in proximity, at the same time, I was pretty certain that the possessor of said weapon wasn’t an aspiring felon.
That said, overall, I agree with you MRS. Open carry tends to make a lot of less (ummm…what’s the word….) down-to-earth (???) people skittish and is probably likely to lead to bans in the future, etc.
June 23rd, 2008
I don’t think that’s really an issue. In the majority of confrontations I can ever see myself being in, most of them do not involve a mugger or whoever seeing that I’m armed, then choosing me as a target anyway. Similar to the way predators don’t pick fights they think they might lose unless they’re desperate, a criminal is not going to try to best you when he sees you’re carrying a sidearm on your hip. Criminals are cowards looking for the easy payoff, and it’s hard to get that payoff if you regularly risk a couple 45 caliber holes.
Maybe you mean automatic escalation of force? If that’s the case, your idea has merit. Someone who has already started a problem may assume that since you’re armed, you’re ready to draw down on them over words and hot air, and then act in a way they might not otherwise. To me this seems like a minor issue simply because I try to avoid such situations to begin with, but it’s something that people who OC should consider all the same.
I don’t think OC will change anyone’s mind about handguns except in a positive manner, assuming you’re not a flaming dickhead about it, which is the point I suppose. Every group has its share of idiots, and we should make an effort to corral them and minimize the damage they do. Hopefully most people are smart enough to distinguish between a gun making you a dickhead, and a dickhead with a gun.
There’s a bit of a difference between blowing smoke in someone’s face and being verbal about carrying a gun; I don’t see too many OCers responding to a civilian challenge by whipping out their gun and screaming IT’S MY RIGHT DAMMIT!! But again, your point is taken and should be considered by all who OC. Let’s try to be civil and make a good impression even to those hostile to us.
I’m stationed in TX right now, and I’m not sure why everyone thinks the gun laws are so amazing… I’m very much looking forward to getting back to a state where I can OC again.
June 23rd, 2008
weambulance
Yes, that is what I’m talking about. Sorry I wasn’t clear. With your weapon visible, it can be assumed that you will use it, therefore escalating the issue beyond what could have happened had no firearm been seen.
However, I believe that to be a rare occasion. And like you said, cops are seldom the victims of robbery or muggings because they have the ability to add extra ventilation holes at a moment’s notice.
And for all the claim of The Gunshine State, we can’t OC here. I’m thinking of submitting legislation for it some day.
June 23rd, 2008
One way to get the comments going, talk about guns
I was hoping to get a follow-up comment in before everyone else chimed in, but since I didn’t (thank you Seattle Traffic!), I’ll speak it now.
The thought I had was that I always hear about a guy or group carrying openly, someone sees a gun and makes a hysteric call to the police, and the fun begins with cops showing up and getting all arresty and grabby. When I read this while I am wearing my gun belt pants, I think, “Geez, you’d think cops would know better and would know that open carry is legal, some re-training is needed over there.”
Then I put on my sh*t filled pants and try to think like a person who feels icky about guns, or even ambivalent, and what I think after reading the news report is this, “Wow, those cops just stormed in there in force and cuffed everyone and took their guns away. If open carry makes the cops, who know the law, act like that, maybe open carry is not really legal. Oh, and now we got some gun nut suing the city and wasting my tax money in a lawsuit.”
Then I put my regular pants back on and I wonder if the whole thing could be avoided by laying a little groundwork first. Maybe a little legwork to feel out the local PD and Sheriff and get their take on open carry. If the LEOs are ok with it, they are less likely to over-react. If they are hostile toward OC, then maybe some politicking is needed, or a new PD Chief/Sheriff. Or just a letter letting city legal know that you plan to open carry around town, that such behavior is legal, and if you are unlawfully harassed by the police, the city will be facing a lawsuit (although that may inspire local bans and make the local PD un-friendly).
And Ted, Hazel, I know this isn’t a gun blog, but I put this up as an example of how the exercising of rights by citizens, while legal and correct, still bear a responsibility to be polite to the rest of society. Rights practiced without manners are our rights to lose.
June 23rd, 2008
When Ted and Hazel invited me on board, it because a *little* bit of a gun board
June 23rd, 2008
Gentlemen…
This is as much a 2A blog as it is a 3A blog… you just don’t hear about violations of the 3rd very often. Rest assured, if one occurs, I will gladly blog about it.
We went to look at shotguns tonight, while we were erranding getting ready for vacation. Looked at a couple of Mossberg models but still can’t decide which way to go. Personally, I would like an over-under sawed off to the stock, Hazel is more of a semi-auto type. Even holding them up side by side, we still can’t decide.
(Then of course, someone is gonna bring up side-by-side double barrels, but by then I usually just shoot them.)
June 23rd, 2008
Oh! Oh! Robb, do you know where the video is to the guy who made the double barreled pump action Remington 12 gauge?
June 23rd, 2008
So let me record my grateful acknowledgment that this government has never quartered a single soldier in my home. Whatever can be said about the rest of the Constitution, the Third Amendment is alive and well. — Joseph Sobran
(I’ve got a quote for every occasion.)
June 24th, 2008
[...] Try manners. [...]
June 24th, 2008
Well said. Because you have the ability to do something doesn’t mean it’s a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, all groups have their fringes which must be managed.
I don’t OC for the reasons you mentioned. Hadn’t thought through the ban angle though; I’ll keep that one in mind if I ever get into an OC discussion with somebody.
BTW Ted, I’ve recently learned of the Stoeger M2000. Same inertia action as the higher end Benellis at around $450. Might be worth a look if a semi turns out to be the path taken. I’m trying to find one myself to look over for the under-the-bed role.
June 24th, 2008
Lots of firsthand stories over on the OpenCarry.org forums at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/ if you’re interested.
June 25th, 2008
Here is a great bit about Polite Open Carry
And some more.